Curse

JoDiamonds · Jul 01, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Dear Arena Net:

I propose that some form of entirely fair PvP be added. By "fair", I mean that there is no possible in-game advantage to a player who has been playing longer. A player who has just purchased GuildWars should be on equal footing in this form of PvP to anyone else.

I don't even care much what form this is. I'm not asking for access to everything; that's not remotely required to make a fair venue. Maybe you go to an arena, enter the mission, and get a random premade template character. Maybe it's a form of "limited" where players draft skills beforehand. But fair PvP doesn't exist in Guild Wars, yet, and it should.

(I'd made a more concrete suggestion elsewhere, but I'm really more interested in the concept in general. This is my concrete suggestion: http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27486).

I encourage anyone else who would like to see some kind of fair PvP to speak up, and concrete ideas on how to do it are welcome. Let Arena pick from them and make something good. =)

--
Added by edit:

The goal of this thread is come up with fair ways to play PvP without unlocking everything. I am not in favor of unlocking everything in PvP. Please understand that I am not asking for that.

DarrenJasper · Jul 01, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

I agree. How about this: When you make a PvP character, it has no relationship to your RP character, and you can pick freely what skills and runes to outfit it with.

johnnylange · Jul 01, 2005, 10:19 PM // 22:19

I think you just need to practice more...

Drakron · Jul 01, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

When I was in the PvP random arena I end up with a all Elementar team as the opposite was a monk, a ranger and 2 mesmer.

I dont think I need to say how it gone ...

You are proposing a system were such thing will happen but also that I end with a character that I know nothing about unless I played for a long time and know how most skills work and that ends up rewarding how much time you spend in the game.

This is a bad idea for the basic reason that only experienced players will have the advantage and there goes "fair" ...

JoDiamonds · Jul 03, 2005, 12:35 AM // 00:35

A few things:

There's no way to not make experienced players have the advantage. It's good for experienced players to have the advantage that comes from, well, experience. Otherwise the game is all luck or grind.

Secondly, I'm asking for proposals for making the game fair. I suggested a few methods. The goal is to have at least one place where entirely fair PvP can be played, at least according to in-game considerations.

Sadly, few people seem to care at all about fairness, so I guess ArenaNet should keep rewarding grinders and not bother making a venue where fair play exists.

=<

JoDiamonds · Jul 03, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnylange

I think you just need to practice more...

Why? Because I want the game to be fair according to in-game considerations? If I needed to practice more, this would be stupid. According to my own complaint, if I want to win, I should instead grind for a while so I have better armor, in-game skills, and runes than other players, and multiple sets of armor for switching in the middle of the fight, etc. Then I wouldn't need to practice more.

A lot of players have asked for things like unlocking all possible items in PvP. This is an alternative to that which would still provide 100% fair, competitive gameplay. I'm sure players would still complain, but it seems like the thing that serious PvP players complain about the most is that you need to grind in order to be on a level playing field. Well, let's create a level playing field, even if it's not "unlock everything right away". The current system can exist alongside it.

RTSFirebat · Jul 03, 2005, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnylange

I think you just need to practice more...

Sorry but I think its unfair how you find players... mostly warriors using max damage weapons or weapons for the underworld or wearing max AL Armor they got by having a mate run them to Drokan's.

PvP matches should have weapon limits... and also armor should have LVL requires to them... to stop anyone from just doing a cheeky run to get better armor.

Kali Ma · Jul 03, 2005, 01:05 AM // 01:05

I'd be happy just having all the base non-elite skills available when creating a PvP character, without having to unlock them in PvE or though competitive PvP play. And to allow that character access to the common upgrades for weapons and armor. Then let the Elite skills, Superior runes and Max upgrades be unlocked through the current reward based system.

Either that, or create a pre-designed template for every profession style in the game, ie. a character that focuses on each of the attributes. Basically, a character build for each of that profession's primary attributes. It's really difficult to try out some of the more obscure designs, like a Water Magic Ele, Smiting Monk, Inpsiration Mesmer, Death Necro, Beast Master Ranger, etc.

Perishiko ReLLiK · Jul 03, 2005, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Ever won with pre-made templats in gvg battles? Our guild did... we had to, since most of us hadnt gotten very far into the game... I do wish that one of the monk pre-made's had spell breaker... since it's a Very needed skill, and that would certainly help things... Because runes and item upgrades aren't really all that needed... It's more of the teamwork that wins... untill you get up to about rank 500 or so, then you might need a few more skills that are highly used in pvp... but who wants to be number 1 in a game they just started in eh?

Besides... i think the way the game is set up, they try to get you to like pvp throughout the pve... so, soon the pve players will probably enjoy some pvp, and perhaps find it even easier then some of the pve missions...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Sorry but I think its unfair how you find players... mostly warriors using max damage weapons or weapons for the underworld or wearing max AL Armor they got by having a mate run them to Drokan's.

PvP matches should have weapon limits... and also armor should have LVL requires to them... to stop anyone from just doing a cheeky run to get better armor.

Ya, i suggested that before (without weapon limits, since weapons already have required attribute lvls for the higher damage)... it would completely ruin any reason for rushing to the forge (for the ganking type), for those low lvl arena's... But, as for those that go there with guildies just to try and get some skills they need for pvp (i find no problem in that)...

ComMan · Jul 03, 2005, 02:06 AM // 02:06

You have to realize that they did their best to balance what RPG players want and what Action gamers want. RPG players want to have REWARDS for all the time they play. They don't want to spend 100 hours questing and have nothing to show for it. Unlocking items and skills gives them a reward for playing.

If you did this you'd drive away the RP players, and a lot of the players who like the RP/Action balance.

JoDiamonds · Jul 03, 2005, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComMan

You have to realize that they did their best to balance what RPG players want and what Action gamers want. RPG players want to have REWARDS for all the time they play. They don't want to spend 100 hours questing and have nothing to show for it. Unlocking items and skills gives them a reward for playing.

If you did this you'd drive away the RP players, and a lot of the players who like the RP/Action balance.

What are you referring to when you say "this"? Not trying to be cheeky, but you are responding to many people and topics.

I don't think anyone on this thread was suggesting much taking away from RPG players. Some would be taken away if all non-elite skills were available in PvP, but that still leaves an awful lot, including all of PvE.

ComMan · Jul 03, 2005, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

What are you referring to when you say "this"? Not trying to be cheeky, but you are responding to many people and topics.

I don't think anyone on this thread was suggesting much taking away from RPG players. Some would be taken away if all non-elite skills were available in PvP, but that still leaves an awful lot, including all of PvE.

Sorry, I'm tired.

Removing the grind entirely, as the first poster suggested.

Tuna · Jul 03, 2005, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Sorry but I think its unfair how you find players... mostly warriors using max damage weapons or weapons for the underworld or wearing max AL Armor they got by having a mate run them to Drokan's.

PvP matches should have weapon limits... and also armor should have LVL requires to them... to stop anyone from just doing a cheeky run to get better armor.

We're talking about lvl 20 pvp here, not ascalon arena. As for armor lvl requirements, they were taken out during the beta weekends because they were lame.

I agree with Jo on his points. I think leveling the playing field will improve the quality of play instead of just having noobs getting slaughtered by people with large portions of the content unlocked. At least give the poor saps a chance. You can't say "use premades" because I garuntee you that I could run a build that would probably never lose to them.

Quintus · Jul 03, 2005, 03:31 AM // 03:31

I made a somewhat similar suggestion here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=27584 , but I didn't get a lot of support.

Back on topic: I like your suggestion.

scottyboy90 · Jul 03, 2005, 03:34 AM // 03:34

I believe this is a terrible idea, because then what happens to us that have spent many hours working on our character. It also gives us no goals to achieve.

Dyeeo · Jul 03, 2005, 03:47 AM // 03:47

I propose that everyone have the same build and choose out of THREE preset attack plans that the game automatically executes.

JoDiamonds · Jul 03, 2005, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottyboy90

I believe this is a terrible idea, because then what happens to us that have spent many hours working on our character. It also gives us no goals to achieve.

What is a terrible idea? What do you think is being taken away?

Personally, my suggestions are outright avoiding (1) taking away anything that exists now or (2) unlocking all skills and items.

What are you against?

JoDiamonds · Jul 03, 2005, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyeeo

I propose that everyone have the same build and choose out of THREE preset attack plans that the game automatically executes.

Admittedly, that's a very popular game. But I don't think there's a lot of money to be made selling Rock Paper Scissors software.

Dyeeo · Jul 03, 2005, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Admittedly, that's a very popular game. But I don't think there's a lot of money to be made selling Rock Paper Scissors software.

Hehehehe I see no complaints about the game mechanics of Rock Paper Scissors

Loviatar · Jul 03, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

this sounds like another UAE thread

somebody said that on top of the top armor and weapons you get the templates 8 skills

is this correct on the skill part?

an idea if you would

add 3-4 skills to the mix from both the primary and secondaries of the template

the extra skills to either be random or random chosen from a select pool of skills chosen by vote by people who pvp

one vote before each match would help get a better available skill mix to have some swap ability with the template

does anybody think this would improve the templates a bit

or significantly?